06/26/92
Larry King Live
The Shuttle Discovery: Encounter in Space?
KING: Welcome back to Larry King Live.
A camera aboard the space shuttle Discovery recorded a curious
sight nine months ago. Some UFO researchers are calling it a
breakthrough video: a clear view of a craft, not one of ours,
performing a high-speed maneuver. Others, with years in the space
program, say it's just plain old debris. Judge for yourself.
The mission was STS-48, flown in September of last year. As
Discovery circled the Earth, the camera picks up what looks like an object drifting from right to left, then suddenly and strangely
veering off to the right and out of view, followed by what looks
like a tracer or laser from the bottom to the top of the screen.
Another, closer look: The object appears to change direction.
NASA says it was waste water dumped from Discovery. UFO
enthusiasts disagree and claim NASA has long hidden the full extent of outer space UFO encounters.
With us from Los Angeles - Don Ecker of UFO Magazine. In
Houston - space engineer and author, James Oberg, who worked on
ground communications for this shuttle mission, the one in question.
Don, why are you so sure this is a UFO?
DON ECKER, `UFO' Magazine: Well, it certainly has all the
appearances, Larry, of being something that is unidentified. It
certainly appears to be flying. And we do not normally associate
waste water - or, as some pundits are calling it, urine in space -
to make drastic right-angle turns.
KING: Why would NASA want to hide it?
Mr. ECKER: Why would the United States Government want to keep
this subject under wraps for 45 years? That's an excellent
question.
KING: Why?
Mr. ECKER: Well, we could certainly go into the realm of
speculation-
KING: I mean, the Government denies it, so you're going to have
to tell me why you think they hide it.
Mr. ECKER: OK. Well, to begin with, I have a couple of
questions that I want to address to Jim first, Larry, that I think
are germane.
To begin with, good evening, Jim. And I have a couple of
questions. To begin with, what capacity are you here in this
evening? Are you here-
KING: Hold it. They're straightening out Jim's microphone. So
let me get straight with you and then they'll let me know and we'll be ready to take that through.
When you saw these tapes for the first time, were you just
feeding your own, for want of a better term, frenzy, something
you'd been wrapped up with for a long time? Or did you turn this
over for analysis? Did you look at it? Did you investigate their
explanation?
Mr. ECKER: Absolutely. As a matter of fact, I have the
documents with me with what NASA had claimed that these particular
anomalous objects are. There are several events on this particular
tape that originally came from a cable television channel back in
the Maryland area that downlinked it on the NASA K-band.
Basically, this was event number two, which shows a number of
anomalous objects in this particular segment of footage, and there
are a number of things that just simply don't stack up with what
NASA is claiming that these things are.
If you watch the entire segment, you will notice that several
moments after this particular event happens, NASA begins preparing
for the waste water dump.
KING: OK, now, James are you with us now? Are we clicked in OK?
JAMES OBERG, Space Engineer: That's fine. We can talk to outer
space OK, but I had a problem with your-
KING: OK, that's James Oberg, space engineer and author. He
worked on flight control for the shuttle mission.
And you say this is not phenomena, right?
Mr. OBERG: It's a phenomenon that's very familiar. Larry, we
see this since the fireflies on John Glenn's flight 30 years ago.
Spacecraft are surrounded by clouds of debris - ice, dust,
insulation, and other fragments. These pieces - and I've seen
these tapes and I've seen hundreds of hours of tapes like that -
are fairly ordinary phenomena.
KING: OK, Don has a couple of quick questions for you.
Don?
Mr. ECKER: Yes. Jim, what capacity are you here in this
evening? Are you here as a civilian? Are you here as a
representative of Lockheed-
Mr. OBERG: I'm not representing-
Mr. ECKER: -or of NASA?
Mr. OBERG: Don, don't give loaded questions, here. I have no
connection with Lockheed. I'm a space nut. I'm interested in
outer space myths and folklore-
Mr. ECKER: So in other words, you're here on your own accord?
KING: Yes, in other words, James, you're not here representing
NASA, right?
Mr. OBERG: I'll play it back, Don. I'm not here as editor of a
magazine trying to sell subscriptions.
KING: OK, no, James-
Mr. ECKER: OK, let me ask you this-
KING: Hold it, hold it, hold it, hold it-
Mr. ECKER: Let me ask you this-
KING: Hold it, hold it-
Mr. ECKER: James-
KING: Don- Don- Don, hold it. It's my show.
James, you're not here as a representative of NASA, right?
Mr. OBERG: No. No, I have written on this subject for a long
time.
KING: OK. Did you work on this mission?
Mr. OBERG: Yes, I did.
KING: In what capacity?
Mr. OBERG: I was in the flight control center, part of helping
the deployment of one of the satellites. So I was there for-
KING: Are you a contracted employee to NASA?
Mr. OBERG: Yes. Yes, I am. Yes, I am.
KING: OK, but tonight you appear as James Oberg, space engineer-
Mr. OBERG: That's right.
KING: -not representing NASA?
Mr. OBERG: That's correct.
Mr. ECKER: All right, Larry, I have one more question for Jim-
KING: OK, now, go ahead, Don. Go ahead.
Mr. ECKER: Yes, I have one more question for him.
Jim, are you working here under the constraints of any security
agreements that you may have signed with NASA?
Mr. OBERG: No, I'm not. Myself's not the issue. The issue are
these pictures and the big deal people are making out of it.
Mr. ECKER: Well, this is a simple question, Jim. Are you
working under security constraints?
KING: All right, no, James, that's a fair question. Did you
sign any kind of an agreement with NASA not to reveal certain
things?
Mr. OBERG: DOD material, yes. This is not, and this is not
covered. Nothing about this material is covered-
Mr. ECKER: All right, let me- One last question, Jim-
KING: `DOD' means Department of Defense material?
Mr. OBERG: Department of Defense, that's right.
KING: OK. Go ahead, Don.
Mr. ECKER: One last question, and this question is very simple.
With the security agreements that you have signed, before we start
addressing this particular segment of footage, if you had any
awareness of anomalous objects, would you be free to talk about
them? And I'm talking about anomalous objects that are not our
debris or our spacecraft.
Mr. OBERG: I am totally free to talk about these kinds of
topics, anything seen on the shuttle. I have talked about it. I
have a long history of writing for Omni Magazine and other
magazines and books-
Mr. ECKER: Well, no, no, no, that's not what I'm saying-
Mr. OBERG: -because it's clear-
Mr. ECKER: You're usually on-
Mr. OBERG: I'm giving you an expert opinion-
KING: Don, Don, Don- Hold it. Guys, hold it. This is not a
trial, Don. He answered the question. If it was not a Defense
Department fear, he could talk about anything.
Now, would you briefly, James-
Mr. OBERG: There was nothing on STS-48 that was classified,
nothing on that flight.
KING: All right. Would you tell us, you are convinced beyond
question that this is debris?
Mr. OBERG: This looks just like it. Now, it could be someone
masquerading at it. Look at those pieces. They're small pieces.
Why is it that we see these- It's always small pieces, just at the
limit of the cameras. There are always pieces like that floating
around. When jets fire, when things leak out or are expelled from
the shuttle, the jets hit pieces. They change direction. I've
seen it- I wouldn't say hundreds of times, but I've seen it before
on other missions.
KING: Don, what do you think it is? If it's a UFO, what is it,
Don?
Mr. ECKER: Well, to begin with, Larry-
KING: I mean, why don't they land here and talk to us?
Mr. ECKER: If, in fact, it were debris- And Jim is very well
aware that debris will tumble, will toss, will turn while in orbit.
The close-up digitally-enhanced segment of this particular footage
shows absolutely no tumbling motion, whatsoever. This is moving in
a straight line. It makes a drastic right-angle turn, shoots off
into space. Now, if, in fact, it were a result-
Mr. OBERG: Don's got to watch some more tapes. He's got to
watch a few hundred more hours of tapes and he'll see this all the
time.
Mr. ECKER: If, in fact, Jim- Just a moment. If, in fact, it
were a piece of debris and if the attitude thrusters from the
shuttle had been fired, then, the way the camera was set up on that particular mission, the entire shuttle picture would have moved,
because it did several moments after this particular incident.
Mr. OBERG: I'm just amazed how much Don can learn about the
space program from so many thousands of miles away from Mission
Control. These are the kinds of things-
Mr. ECKER: Well, if, in fact, Jim, we're going to talk about
this, fine. If we're going to start ad hominem attacks, that's
something else.
Mr. OBERG: All right, let's go back to the films.
KING: We'll come right back with James Oberg and Don Ecker.
We'll also include your phone calls on this extraordinary topic
that never goes away. This is Larry King Live. Don't you go away.
{Commercial break}
KING: Let's start to include your phone calls for Don Ecker -
he's a researcher with UFO Magazine - and James Oberg, space
engineer and author.
Huntsville, Alabama - famous area for outer space - hello.
4th CALLER: {Huntsville, Alabama} Hello?
KING: Yes.
4th CALLER: My name is O.H. Bond, Jr. {sp?}. I'm in
Huntsville, Alabama.
KING: Yes, sir.
4th CALLER: I have an experiment on the shuttle which has flown
a number of times called the Mesoscale Lightning Experiment {sp?},
in which we look for mesoscale lightning and we look for the
effects of unusual events which occur in space.
KING: And?
4th CALLER: Particularly, we look for lightning events which
we've seen to go 20 miles straight up into the stratosphere from
cloud stockfilms.
KINMeaning?
4th CALLER: The question I want to ask you guys is- With
respect to these flying objects, I agree with James Oberg. From
what I have seen over numbers of years of looking at video images,
this is debris from the spacecraft, as far as I can determine. And
the second thing is I believe that many of the objects we see are
the other debris which is in orbit.
4th CALLER: The question I want to ask you guys is- With
respect to these flying objects, I agree with James Oberg. From
what I have seen over numbers of years of looking at video images,
this is debris from the spacecraft, as far as I can determine. And
the second thing is I believe that many of the objects we see are
the other debris which is in orbit.
KING: Don?
Mr. ECKER: I would have to ask, Larry, that if, in fact, this
is the case that this was debris from the shuttle, why is it not
tumbling? Why did it make such a drastic turn? The fact that NASA
claims-
Mr. OBERG: Can I answer that? If you give me some time, I can
answer that.
Mr. ECKER: Well, the question was addressed to me first, and
I'm asking the question, Jim, and then you can go to it.
Mr. OBERG: And you'll make sure that you don't- You don't want
the answer.
KING: All right, but it's a fair question that Don puts, and
let Jim respond to it. Why would a piece of debris move like that?
I've never seen debris move like that.
Mr. OBERG: Well, you have to- People can watch this. As the
shuttle is going through orbit, people don't realize there are more than 50 points on the nose of the shuttle, the tail, on the side-
more than 50 points where debris, water, ice, come off- from the
belly. And as these pieces come off and rocket engines can fire,
they'll form what are called plumes. They'll form a blast. And as
debris will go into that area, they will turn, and you can watch
this.
Fortunately, we have on the SATCOM F2R satellite and on many,
many cable networks the NASA select from space flight. It's the
reason that these people saw this tape in the first place. I would
simply recommend that they and anyone else watch that tape for more than a few hours. Watch it for several years, in terms of the
missions. And they'll be seeing this kind of event.
But the thing about why these are just debris and not
spacecraft, alien spacecraft- They're always small. They're always
just at the limit of the camera.
KING: But you don't know-
Mr. OBERG: No matter how much the camera is zoomed in, it's
still just a dot-
KING: James, this isn't 100 percent-
Mr. OBERG: -and that just tells you these are little pieces.
KING: You don't know it for sure, but it's your best educated
guess, right?
Mr. OBERG: I'll tell you, if we saw some real spacecraft- If I
saw some real spacecraft - and I know many people in the space
program - saw something out there that could be really proof of
something revolutionary, there's no power on earth that would be
able to stop people from coming out and being on your show-
Mr. ECKER: Larry, one thing-
KING: All right, let me get a call in.
Sykesville, Maryland, hello.
5th CALLER: {Sykesville, Maryland} Hello, this is Vincent
DiPetro {sp?}.
KING: Yes.
5th CALLER: From Sykesville, Maryland.
KING: Yes.
5th CALLER: I originally did an analysis of this very tape that
you're showing on TV.
KING: Uh-huh.
5th CALLER: And I'd like to make a few comments about this.
KING: Are you a scientist?
5th CALLER: I work at Goddard Space Flight Center. I'm an
engineer.
KING: OK.
5th CALLER: I work with the space program.
KING: All right.
5th CALLER: But I'm doing this freelance. And I'd like to say
that I've sent this to a number of scientists, called a number of
engineers, and they've all described this event as ice.
KING: Ice?
5th CALLER: Ice, that has turned in a way- If you look at the
other debris that's on the screen, you'll see that in every case
there is a right-angle turn that is made of this debris. In other
words, it's not-
Mr. ECKER: Well, Vince- Vince, let me ask you a question,
because I have the entire tape. And I also have the section that
you digitally enhanced that shows clearly a domed disc object that
was recorded on this mission. Do you deny that?
5th CALLER: I see that on there, and I do not know what that is.
Mr. ECKER: Did you digitally enhance it?
5th CALLER: Yes.
Mr. ECKER: OK. Did it look to you like an anomalous object, or
did it look like debris or ice?
5th CALLER: It looks like an object, but I can't explain what
it is. And I'm not saying that it isn't something that you're
describing. The only thing I'm saying is that the explanation that
I have gotten is that this debris is ice. There's no way of
determining how big it is. It could be a microinch, a couple of
inches. It's certainly not several hundred feet across, as a lot
of people would be led to believe. And the explanation I got was
that there were rockets, little tiny rockets, that are used to
change the attitude of the spacecraft on the sides; that when those things go off- It's nitric acid and hydrozene that fires these
rockets. When they go off-
Mr. ECKER: Yes, and there is no flash, either, is there, Vince?
5th CALLER: There is a flash that you can see at the beginning.
And if you are so careful as to take a piece of cellophane and put
it onto your TV set, you will see that all of these objects- Not
the ones that are stars, because the stars you can clearly see go
behind the horizon. But if you look at the debris that flies from
left to right and so forth, everything makes a right-hand turn.
It's even less-
Mr. ECKER: Well, Vince, since you worked on this particular
piece of footage, let me ask you another question. Before this
event happens, this object rises up out of the blackness and is
traveling from right to upper left. Now, if, in fact, it was there
prior to the start of this sequence, how do you explain that?
5th CALLER: I explain that in this way. If you listen {sp?} to
the tape carefully, you will see that the spacecraft is just coming out of twilight into sunlight. Now, if there was debris flying
around in the blackness of space, you would not see it until it was lit up.
KING: OK. All right, we're going to have to do some more on
this-
Mr. OBERG: Or it might have come over the payload bay where the
lights are. Either way, that would explain it.
KING: Let me get a break, and we'll come right back.
Thanks for calling, Vince, by the way.
We'll come back with more. This is fascinating - I don't
understand it, but it's fascinating! Don't go away.
{Commercial break}
KING: All right, we're running close on time.
Don, are we ever going to see one of these land on the White
House lawn and speak to us?
Mr. ECKER: Well, I don't know about landing on the White House
lawn, Larry, but we had in 1952 three flights that overflew the
White House.
I have one last question that I want to ask Jim very quickly
and briefly.
KING: All right, real fast.
Mr. ECKER: Jim, are you aware of any NASA studies on UFO
phenomena?
Mr. OBERG: I'm aware, Don, of 30 years of phony stories-
Mr. ECKER: And I'm not saying spaceships. I'm saying-
Mr. OBERG: -in UFO magazines-
Mr. ECKER: I'm saying-
Mr. OBERG: -taking transcripts-
KING: Guys, we'll have you both come back. We're out of time.
Thanks, fellows-
Mr. OBERG: -and faking them.
KING: OK, thanks. We're out of time. Thanks very much.
Hope you enjoyed this edition of `Don Ecker Live' from
Washington. {laughs} A little fun there.
